What incredibly frightened people these tea party folks are. The world is changing almost incomprehensibly, right in front of their eyes. While always keeping our guard up, be aware that they are brothers and sisters, shaken to the core by a world that seems turned upside down. Racism? Sure. People become even more tribal in hard times. We're going to win this round--let us be kind in victory. These are our neighbors, and sometimes family, as human as we are. Anger is a mask over fear.
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Read the Article at HuffingtonPost
Saturday, March 20, 2010
Tea Party Protests: 'Ni**er,' 'Fa**ot' Shouted At Members Of Congress
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Doesn't sound like they consider certain types of people brothers.
And when they had control of Congress and the presidency they certainly didn't reach out to us....wanting to show them kindness now is the sort of soft thinking that leads to the Democrats blowing it when they are in power.
"wanting to show them kindness now"
The Democrats have been way too kind to the "loyal" opposition. During the heat of battle, ruthlessness is necessary to score victory. It's time Obama et al ditched the conciliatory stance they adopted to mollify nervous racists during the election. It's high time the Democrats fought NASTY to secure Healthcare and other planks in their agenda. Once victory's secure, then kindness is rational and politique, since it demonstrates that the quarrel concerned POLICIES and IDEAS, not PEOPLE, and muting hostility eases the re-acceptance of the vanquished into the fold. Once defeated, stalwart enemies often become sturdy allies, as the Post-War Axis nations and many a reformed Segregationist a la George Wallace show.
"What incredibly frightened people these tea party folks are."
"These"? Would that be all of them? Or the small minority of them behaving abominably on camera?
At this point, roughly 50% of the U.S. opposes Obamacare when polled. So, they're all racists and homophobes?
--Erich Schwarz
"The world is changing almost incomprehensibly, right in front of their eyes."
I don't think anybody has any trouble comprehending that there's a huge change likely to happen -- namely, nationalizing one-sixth of the U.S. economy. That's comprehensible, all right. What's being hotly argued in America is whether the change is good or bad.
Believe it or not, it is possible for a political change to be huge, and even supported by self-designated "progressive" people, and yet bad. Socialism's been such a change in every country in which it's been tried. That hasn't made it a slamdunk success, nor it is likely to.
--Erich Schwarz
That's a big generalization. I'm not a tea party guy but i am concerned about this bill. frankly im concerned because as of late our elected officials have real problems accomplishing anything beyond campaigning for the next election. We may get a health care bill but will we get one that's not an absolute boondoggle? Will it really help bring the deficit down? i hope so but im not confident. Im really sick of the party @#$# and pray that sooner rather than later our politicians start to hold hands, give us some hard medicine and start leading us forward. global warming, a huge national debt, failing schools, ect. we have several multi-generational problems that are going to cripple us. Hopefully Americans can can get it together and go beyond the sillyness on both sides.
Health care is not being nationalized under the proposed bills.
"Health care is not being nationalized under the proposed bills."
You really do think I was born yesterday, don't you?
I'll just quote Steve here, in an earlier post he did about Kucinich's being flipped from a 'no' to a 'yes' vote by Obama:
"My guess is that Obama played connect-the-dots with Kucinich, showing him how several different aspects of the bill, combined with existing options, will make it possible to move toward single payer or a Medicare buy-in -- if they play their cards carefully."
So, Steve can see that if Obamacare passes, it will be a de facto crowbar to pry the country into nationalization of medicine; and Kucinich can see it; but I'm supposed to pretend that I don't see it, even when the clear political implications of Obamacare are explicitly pointed out here on this blog? Give. me. a. break.
--Erich Schwarz
"At this point, roughly 50% of the U.S. opposes Obamacare when polled. So, they're all racists and homophobes?"
The ones yelling ni**er and fa**ot certainly are.
You can be opposed to Obamacare without hating people because they are black or gay.
"..nationalizing one-sixth of the U.S. economy."
Understandable angst over such extensive federal expansion should be tempered by the understanding that Healthcare many work to shrink Welfare and other trouble-plagued entitlements.
Currently, many who suffer crippling or incapacitating illnesses but who lack healthcare are reduced to indigence once they can no longer work. Many are then forced to depend on welfare, social security and other public services. As many Conservatives note, public dependence often becomes permanent, sapping its "beneficiaries" of incentives to recoup or be proactive. Supplying the sick with care first off may head off such dependency, insuring they remain gainfully employed in the private sector, thus diminishing federal control of many citizens and boosting the economy.
You really do think I was born yesterday, don't you?
I'll just quote Steve here, in an earlier post he did about Kucinich's being flipped from a 'no' to a 'yes' vote by Obama:
"My guess is that Obama played connect-the-dots with Kucinich, showing him how several different aspects of the bill, combined with existing options, will make it possible to move toward single payer or a Medicare buy-in -- if they play their cards carefully."
So, Steve can see that if Obamacare passes, it will be a de facto crowbar to pry the country into nationalization of medicine; and Kucinich can see it; but I'm supposed to pretend that I don't see it, even when the clear political implications of Obamacare are explicitly pointed out here on this blog? Give. me. a. break.
No I think that either you don't know or don't care what "nationalizing" or for that matter "socialism" means. I make no statement about when you were born.
My statement remains accurate. Health care is NOT being nationalized under the current bills. Private pharmaceutical companies, private insurance companies, private health care providers or doctors will NOT be nationalized under the proposed bill. That is a fact. No one is debating nationalizing health care. So to bring up the spectre of nationalized health care as a reason to oppose the bill is intellectually dishonest. A bill that enshrines private insurers and forces individuals to buy from them on pain of government fines or else, but does not have any public option or cost controls on drugs/medical procedures is hardly a move towards "nationalization". There is nothing in those bills to prevent insurers or doctors or drug companies from raising prices as they see fit. Again, this is NOT something that would occur under nationalization.
I deeply respect Steve and most of the posters here but speculation about how and why Kucinich changed his mind, is just that, speculation. Outside of Kucinich's public statements, we can't say for sure.
Opposing these health care bills on the grounds that it might give political cover to actions that MIGHT happen twenty years down the line is exactly the same argument that the Right has used against social changes since the New Deal.
Obama did not fight for nationalization, public option or cost controls and those things are not in the bill.
That sure is a sea of white faces at those tea party get togethers. I do not believe it's a coincidence.
"At this point, roughly 50% of the U.S. opposes Obamacare when polled. So, they're all racists and homophobes?"
Ah, but not all of the 50% are opposing the proposal from the same direction. At least some of that 50% feel that the bill proposed is bad because it does not do enough. 60% of Americans, when polled, favor a single-payer health care plan. So, of the 50% of people who are opposed to the currently proposed health care plan, somewhere between 10 and 40% are not "tea-partiers". I think it is safe to say that the driving force behind the tea-party movement is fear, which frequently expresses itself as racism and homophobia.
"I think it is safe to say that the driving force behind the tea-party movement is fear..."
Fear of what? Given what I've seen, it's fear that Hayek was right and that Obamacare is going to be, to put it gently, counterproductive.
"... which frequently expresses itself as racism and homophobia."
Do you have any statistics whatsoever to back up this claim? Because I think you're mistaken. Certainly, the people I know who disagree with Obamacare aren't citing the race or sexual orientation of its supporters; they're citing the arguments I've quoted earlier, about cost, innovation, and individual liberty.
--Erich Schwarz
Ah, but not all of the 50% are opposing the proposal from the same direction. At least some of that 50% feel that the bill proposed is bad because it does not do enough. 60% of Americans, when polled, favor a single-payer health care plan. So, of the 50% of people who are opposed to the currently proposed health care plan, somewhere between 10 and 40% are not "tea-partiers".
Well said. You can *always* lie with statistics, so it really depends on how the question in the particular study was phrased. I'm sure I could phrase a survey in such a way to get way more than 50% buy in if I tried. Survey numbers are irrelevant unless the questions are posted with the numbers- and most people reading the numbers don't realize this.
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