tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post1270929214110527479..comments2024-03-25T17:38:55.490-07:00Comments on Dar Kush: I fight with the weapons I haveSteven Barneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-44206495232740987192009-08-25T06:31:44.919-07:002009-08-25T06:31:44.919-07:00We need the Public Option. We need UHC. This is ...We need the Public Option. We need UHC. This is particularly true if you are a minority. We NEED to close the gap on a lot of these health disparities, disparities that to my knowledge are not as pronounced in countries with UHC.<br /><br />We also have to realize that everyday 1,000 people wake up in Middle America and realize, really REALIZE that the PRESIDENT is BLACK. No more shock, no more denial. And that apprehensive/negative energy has to be directed somewhere...and its been showing up at Town Halls.Literary Consultanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09141435173084348478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-31704981007898076322009-08-23T05:20:06.623-07:002009-08-23T05:20:06.623-07:00On the subject of racial intermingling, I wonder i...On the subject of racial intermingling, I wonder if there is difference in generations. As a statistician I know that drawing conclusions from a single non-random sample is dangerous. But yesterday was my younger son's wedding and leaving aside family the wedding was attended by eight friends of my wife and I, all white and thirteen friends of my son and the bride nine white and four black.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-34017473941825733812009-08-21T10:44:40.217-07:002009-08-21T10:44:40.217-07:00Man, the death panels thing has legs.
Marty, we h...Man, the death panels thing has legs.<br /><br />Marty, we have death panels now; they're private insurance companies, and they operate without oversight or conscience.<br /><br /><i>If a that panel decides that researching a drug that will help seniors live longer is less efficacious than researching a drug that will help younger people then that panel is making life and death decisions.</i><br /><br />Far as I know, no one's even discussing such a step.Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-64932687451667371102009-08-21T10:01:15.490-07:002009-08-21T10:01:15.490-07:00Marty, would you agree that private insurance bure...Marty, would you agree that private insurance bureaucrats are already making life and death decisions on who gets care and how much if any the private company will pay for care?Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-73908559206282584342009-08-21T09:59:05.541-07:002009-08-21T09:59:05.541-07:00By the way medicare allows for the sale of private...<i>By the way medicare allows for the sale of private supplemental insurance which plays a substantial role in the health statistics for seniors </i><br /><br />Well, personally, as a liberal, I'd be strongly opposed to any government health insurance that <i>didn't</i> either, a) compete in a free market with private alternatives (as would be the case for the "public option" that currently looks likely to pass the House of Representatives, be dropped by the Senate, and then get debated in whatever committee reconciles the two bills) or b) allow people to buy private supplemental insurance (as is the case with Medicare). But I don't see that kind of complete shutting out of the private market as likely to happen in this country. Even a single payer system, which I can't imagine happening any time soon, would likely allow for supplemental insurance in the same way that Medicare does.Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-75011617386254864232009-08-21T09:44:57.042-07:002009-08-21T09:44:57.042-07:00Dan,
Its that last bit about cutting costs that b...Dan,<br /> Its that last bit about cutting costs that bothers me. While there may not be "death panels" by name in the health care bills there is a panel to decide efficacy of potential medical and drug research programs, in the name of cost cutting. If a that panel decides that researching a drug that will help seniors live longer is less efficacious than researching a drug that will help younger people then that panel is making life and death decisions. I would prefer a for profit system where both drugs are pursued and that's why I want a solution that keeps the federal government out of making those kind of decisions. By the way medicare allows for the sale of private supplemental insurance which plays a substantial role in the health statistics for seniors and the fact that the government doesn't control the whole health industry means that private companies are still making the decisions on what medical advances to pursue. Finally, medicare as currently run is too expensive, who is to say how happy people will be with it or how their life expectancy will be affected by cost cutting efforts in medicare.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-83951794925631354252009-08-21T08:14:57.036-07:002009-08-21T08:14:57.036-07:00Marty,
If one exams the life expectancy at age 65...Marty,<br /><br /><i>If one exams the life expectancy at age 65 the U.S. actually has higher <br />life expectancy numbers than UHC countries like Canada and the UK.</i><br /><br />Not surprising to me. That's the age at which the American population receives UHC ... Medicare.<br /><br /><i>Obama has been catching a lot of flack from the left for backing off from the "public option". My question is if two health care reform packages both result in 100% coverage one public and one not then why should it matter to the left which way its done.</i><br /><br />I'm not clear Obama has backed off; if he has, he's not going to get a bill passed.<br /><br />I'm genuinely baffled why he's bothering to deal with Republicans, unless it's purely for appearances so that he can blame them later (might be) ... everyone knows that there's no conceivable bill that any but a few Republicans are going to vote for. He might as well do a good bill as a bad one, in that scenario.<br /><br />It doesn't matter much to me how UHC is reached, as long as it's, 1, Universal, and 2, does something to restrain costs. I see how the public option does both; I don't see how anything else being discussed does either. (Short of single payer, which is where Obama should have started this negotiation.)Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-35140914756836820542009-08-21T07:16:25.533-07:002009-08-21T07:16:25.533-07:00It seems like liberals ought to be AGAINST bigger ...It seems like liberals ought to be AGAINST bigger governmental programs if they are "• favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms : liberal citizenship laws.<br />• (in a political context) favoring maximum individual liberty in political and social reform"<br /><br />Clearly that's not the case. <br /><br />I fundamental tenet of my beliefs about government is that I don't want it to try and be 'dad'. I don't really want a government that tries to be my moral guide. I don't want a government that cooks me dinner. I want a government that provides a basically fair legal system and , figuratively speaking, keeps the barbarians outside the gates.<br /><br />And I think that's pretty much what the 'founding fathers' wanted to when they wrote the Constitution. <br /><br />But hey, I know that's not what we have or what we're going to get.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15353783271100674218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-566181588162313322009-08-21T05:08:19.529-07:002009-08-21T05:08:19.529-07:00Steve Perry: Your interpret that liberals are *for...Steve Perry: Your interpret that liberals are *for* and conservatives are *against* is self contradictory since it demonstrates that liberal are against conservatism. But on honestly discussing the the issue liberals tend to be for more radical change and conservatives for slower more gradual change. Being at either end of the scale is bad. Since we are so wrapped up in the subject of health these days lets look at an example in that area. Examine the question of when a new drug is developed how soon does it get released to the public. If the government made no regulations it would get released immediately. Sometimes this would result in good things for people who are helped by drug receiving it earlier, and sometimes it would result in a lot of harm from undiscovered side effects. On the other hand too onerous requirements for releasing a drug, will delay it getting to people who need it and in some cases discourage their development. So moderation in both liberalism and conservatism is needed.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-83361206666815658212009-08-20T19:33:01.787-07:002009-08-20T19:33:01.787-07:00Steve: There needs to be a solution that makes som...Steve: There needs to be a solution that makes some form of health care available to those who don't have any. But it must be done in such away that we don't end up with one national insurer. We all know pure capitalism doesn't work. That's why we have anti-monopoly laws. My position is that a government monopoly of something like health care is no better than private monopoly. The profit motive is often cited as important to the development of new drugs and other medical advances but competition is also important. If a single government health entity is responsible for driving the development of new drugs the most likely approach will be a contract to one drug company which will try one approach. In a competitive market different researchers trying different approaches are more likely to come up with a better drug.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-37267443504882219192009-08-20T13:45:26.002-07:002009-08-20T13:45:26.002-07:00What is wrong with any American citizen being able...What is wrong with any American citizen being able to buy into Medicare for cost plus 10%?Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-81615175625571357512009-08-20T13:42:14.028-07:002009-08-20T13:42:14.028-07:00By the way--I wouldn't want the ONLY insurance...By the way--I wouldn't want the ONLY insurance to be the government, either. I just believe that the Insurance companies' primary responsibility is to make a profit, and I've seen them perfectly willing to hurt people to do it. I'm sick of it. And I don't care if they can't pay executives a billion dollars a year any more, I really don't.Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-52662308997116474982009-08-20T13:01:37.835-07:002009-08-20T13:01:37.835-07:00Hi Marty.
I didn't think you would necessarily...Hi Marty.<br />I didn't think you would necessarily agree but I was just trying to explain why just getting to 100% health coverage was not the Holy Grail to many people.<br /><br />If you think that health care should not be a for profit business then reforms that don't challenge that basic assumption will leave some people on the Left (not all by any means) less than happy.<br /><br />Most people don't care about that. But what they do care about is whether or not they have coverage or can get coverage and what it costs. If a reform passes and the 47 million people without health coverage are able to get it but have to pay a pretty penny, or have to pay more than they would with a "public option", and still can't afford it, then 100% coverage doesn't really solve their problem. There are and will be tremendous arguments over what the baseline insurance package would include. Again, if the public option is neutered or the government is unable to get a handle on pharmaceutical costs, "reform" will have been much ado about nothing according to this POV.<br /><br />I know you don't agree with much of that but that is what some people are worried about.Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-50997747006376391992009-08-20T12:30:32.703-07:002009-08-20T12:30:32.703-07:00If anyone sees a flaw in them I'm more than wi...<em>If anyone sees a flaw in them I'm more than willing to listen.</em><br /><br />Well, the main thing I'd note is that there's a broad range in between "don't think about blacks much at all" and "would be willing to marry someone who's black." Strom Thurmond, for instance, wasn't willing to marry the mother of his first child, but he wasn't exactly indifferent to blacks.<br /><br />I'd agree that white people on average think about black people a whole lot less than black people think about white people, and that a lot of what looks from the black side like active prejudice against black people may from the white side look more like obliviousness, ignorance, and indifference. But at the same time, I think there are enough white people paying attention to race for negative prejudices to have significant influence on attitudes toward social programs.<br /><br />The other thing that strikes me, though, about Steve's list ("murder, obesity, hypertension"), is that I can see where if you just look at the racial differences one at a time, it's easier <em>not</em> to see the social safety net as being a significant factor (well, at least if you leave out the murder rate - I have trouble imagining a benign way of not seeing that as tied to social conditions). For instance, hypertension's a condition with both a biological and a lifestyle component; if you just take it by itself, it's not that obvious that a racial difference might not be (like the fact that blue-eyed people are more prone to macular degeneration when they get old) genetic. It's only when you look at the whole picture that it starts to look increasingly unlikely that differences in black and white lifespans in this country aren't strongly related to safety net issues. So to some extent indifference could lead in the same direction as active prejudice, here.Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-57663216961524635082009-08-20T11:44:20.358-07:002009-08-20T11:44:20.358-07:00In my search for information on medical comparison...In my search for information on medical comparisons between the U.S. and Canada I came across this interesting document.<br /><br />http://www.strokesurvivors.ca/professionals/documents/FINAL_News_Release_English_091208.pdf<br /><br />Note this is a Canadian organization, no axe to grind in our health care debate and published in September before the debate started.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-37096902917341811492009-08-20T10:47:59.643-07:002009-08-20T10:47:59.643-07:00Sweeping generalizations about race are tricky, bu...Sweeping generalizations about race are tricky, but I beleive my statements were all backed up by data, logic, and reasoning. If anyone sees a flaw in them I'm more than willing to listen. In fact, that's the whole point. One puts one thoughts out in the open so that others can point out flaws, and one can adjust one's thinking if necessary. That's how one learns and grows.Mike Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634414529649908616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-31984979244265625382009-08-20T10:46:36.388-07:002009-08-20T10:46:36.388-07:00Shady Grady: I'm not sure what you mean by the...Shady Grady: I'm not sure what you mean by the results are no good. If you get the same health care plan and the same doctors with two plans I don't see why the medical results should be any worse one way or the other. On the other hand if you go public, end up with zero completion, which allows you to dictate drug prices, then comes the question do you have less incentive to develop new drugs and end up with worse health care. Life Expectancy has jumped in the last fifty years world wide. Will it continue to rise if the U.S. drug market goes down the tube. One question Steve asked was how many advances came from the U.S. but another aspect is how much has the ability to sell at a good price in the U.S driven foreign as well as U.S. research. One thing I've noticed in this debate is the ability of both sides to 1) cherry pick data to support their side and 2) to interpret the same data to support their side.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-91866565720226846852009-08-20T10:44:36.432-07:002009-08-20T10:44:36.432-07:00Marty--
The reason to get the government involved...Marty--<br /><br />The reason to get the government involved is that I've seen it to work in many other countries, and I've lost my trust of Insurance companies, unless they have serious competition. THAT, I believe, will keep them honest. I've simply watched too many claim denials, rate hikes, and rejection of policies to believe they will reform without a gun to their heads. Also...why should I pay an executive a billion dollars a year?Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-14943033785076258152009-08-20T10:41:17.463-07:002009-08-20T10:41:17.463-07:00Relation between UHC and accidents: stress and lac...Relation between UHC and accidents: stress and lack of sleep are, to my knowledge, major factors in accidents. Stress relieve and deeper rest (as well as a clearer understanding of the risks of sleep deprevation) are both things that can be, and are taught to those with access to the information.Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-83889023338222251422009-08-20T10:38:47.985-07:002009-08-20T10:38:47.985-07:00Saskplanner--
I appreciate your input, but ask yo...Saskplanner--<br /><br />I appreciate your input, but ask you to stop the name-calling. This blog is SPECIFICALLY intended to allow people of different beliefs and positions to express themselves without being attacked. I'm sure your intentions were positive, and would thank you kindly if your language is the same.Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-19211852618123926172009-08-20T10:36:06.076-07:002009-08-20T10:36:06.076-07:00Marty: re smokers. No, I'd expect that post U...Marty: re smokers. No, I'd expect that post UHC, smoking rates would decline more than the same percentage reduction in Non-UHC countries with similar demographics. Whether it would be lower overall can relate to other social factors. But isn't this conversation fun?Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-24375757353242291362009-08-20T10:31:33.873-07:002009-08-20T10:31:33.873-07:00Mike:
I'm sure that blacks think about whites ...Mike:<br />I'm sure that blacks think about whites more often than the reverse. However, with a black President in the white house, ah do think it's reasonable for the concept of race, so much in the news, to be prominent. I never said, or thought, that whites think about it as often, and don't believe this to be true. Still, my comment holds: when I hear someone say that they think the poor want to be poor, I suspect that they generalize that to groups as well. But I enjoyed your reasoning.Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-80008599947499989942009-08-20T10:27:36.542-07:002009-08-20T10:27:36.542-07:00If you're white, you're all right; if you&...If you're white, you're all right; if you're brown, stick around; if you're black, step back ...<br /><br />Broad, sweeping comments about race are tricky things, Mike.Steve Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12079658447270792228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-30779070961393893232009-08-20T10:24:10.533-07:002009-08-20T10:24:10.533-07:00I think it's important to keep in mind that th...I think it's important to keep in mind that there is a difference between increasing integration between all the races in America, and increasing integration between Blacks and the rest of America. The two are related, but there are also some wide differences in them.<br /><br />In terms of intermarriage, which I think is the best statistic to see how the races get along with each other because it shows the members of one race are wanting (at least in theory) to spend the rest of their life committed to a member of another race, the Hispanic, Asian, and Native America rates of intermarriage have definitly skyrocketed over the last 50 years with some of them approaching rates of 50%. The Black intermarriage rate has also grown but not nearly to the same degree (under 5% IIRC). If the Black intermarriage rate were to double, double again, and then double a third time, it would still be less than the Asian rate of today. To me, this shows that Hispanics, Asians, and Native Americans are mostly integrated with White America, but that Blacks are not.Mike Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634414529649908616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-66432471973574184652009-08-20T09:45:29.995-07:002009-08-20T09:45:29.995-07:00I grew up in a town that was maybe 90% white, goin...I grew up in a town that was maybe 90% white, going to a church that was probably more than 90% white.<br /><br />Now I live in a town that's 76% white, go to a workplace where maybe a third of my coworkers are Asian (and have in the past, at a different workplace, been in the minority in my work group for being white), go to a mostly Latino neighborhood to attend a church where the majority is white, but with a significant minority not (and with more partly white and partly Asian children than fully white kids), and am part of a family where half my siblings married someone who's either of another race or mixed race (so that a clear majority of my nephews and nieces are mixed race), and probably all of us have slept with someone of another race. And none of that involved trying hard.<br /><br />I realize that living in California might throw me a little more into contact with people of other races than people in some other states (and it's still the case that a majority of the people in my cell phone contact list are white), but I find it hard to believe I'm that much of an outlier; I think that there really <em>has</em> been a shift in the direction of more mingling of the races, since I was a child in the 60s. Rather a large one, even if we still have a large way to go.Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.com