tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post4519043671999835715..comments2024-03-25T17:38:55.490-07:00Comments on Dar Kush: Beauty and Power thoughtsSteven Barneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-87635342278910635972008-04-09T18:16:00.000-07:002008-04-09T18:16:00.000-07:00And some men don't chase young, hot women. I woul...And some men don't chase young, hot women. I would guess that the percentage of women unimpressed by power is about the same as the percentage of men unimpressed by beauty.Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-83534666224244234672008-04-09T17:43:00.000-07:002008-04-09T17:43:00.000-07:00"It seems to me that his current approach is so di..."It seems to me that his current approach is so different that it ought to be called by a different name. It seems to be summed up by the sentence: Treat women with respect and expect them to treat you the same. This seems like a wonderful approach, which might even lead to better overall communication between men and women."<BR/><BR/>...and better overall communication among all of us (if the advice is taken gender-blindly too), whether romantic or platonic, whether opposite-sex or same-sex, etc. :)<BR/><BR/>"But I think the mating game is actually close to even, in the advantages and disadvantages each sex has."<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, even the concept of "even" is less applicable to mating than to employment.<BR/><BR/>I mean, lots of unfair discimination exists in the world's workplaces, hiring, and training. Unfortunately, a lot of people out there are denied their rights to earn a living in ways they're willing and able to do. >:(<BR/><BR/>At the same time, all discrimination is fair in mating. The right to say no to unwanted sex, unwanted groping, unwanted kissing, etc. is far too important :) to rule out anyone's reason for saying no.<BR/><BR/>For example, suppose I think a guy is hot and he rejects me for something I can't help, like my race, my height, or my being female. Sure I may feel frustrated about it, but I still respect his right to say no. There's no such thing as being "qualified" to date him despite him feeling unatrracted for whatever reason. Also, celibacy still threatens my survival a lot less than unemployment would.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-69622857551392182442008-04-09T04:16:00.000-07:002008-04-09T04:16:00.000-07:00"Well, that would be honest...if women would give ..."Well, that would be honest...if women would give up their interest in wealthy, powerful men. Gee, when do you think that will happen?"<BR/><BR/>It's already happened for some of us.<BR/><BR/>Now that some of us have the educational opportunities and vocational opportunities we need to earn a living apart from our sex lives, we can afford to consider people in our own age group whom we find sexy :) and can even afford to not have sex when we don't have partners we find sexy :D instead of limiting ourselves to the men who could support us being housewives, possibly settling for sex we enjoy as little as any other tedious-but-necessary-to-keep-the-job workplace chore, and hoping we don't get kicked to the curb or infected by STDs they brought home after cheating when bearing all their children makes us less perky.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-63853732449812079232008-04-04T07:59:00.000-07:002008-04-04T07:59:00.000-07:00Wow, Steve. My reaction to your comment following ...Wow, Steve. My reaction to your comment following what I said about Speed Seduction was overwhelming and unexpected. I have felt a sense of hopeless despair for the last 24 hours. As I said, I have read only Jeffries' first book, which was morally repugnant to me, and his daily marketing emails for the past two or three months. It seems to me that his current approach is so different that it ought to be called by a different name. It seems to be summed up by the sentence: Treat women with respect and expect them to treat you the same. This seems like a wonderful approach, which might even lead to better overall communication between men and women.<BR/><BR/>I have always done the first half, but the second half never had occurred to me. Of course, I am coming from the perspective of someone who for most all of my adult life has reacted to women to whom I was attracted by avoiding them for fear they would find out and get angry. The few times I tried to break this pattern did not work out well.<BR/><BR/>I got into "relationships" only when a woman to whom I was not really attracted would approach me verbally and very explicitly. I learned well the feminist separatist message that women are good and men are evil, and assumed that continual emotional and verbal abuse were the price of having a sex life.<BR/><BR/>For the past decade, I have been in what seems to be a very healthy relationship, but I certainly just lucked into it. I would have had no clue as to how to bring about such a thing. Being treated with respect is nice, but I would never have thought it normal until reading Jeffries' recent stuff.<BR/><BR/>I know so many people who either have never had a date because they are challenged as I was/am, or they have given up on relationships because they were always abused emotionally and verbally. I really believe that the communication technology that I see in these emails is the only thing I have ever seen as offering even a glimmer of hope for such people. But if attempting real communication is unethical, things are indeed hopeless.<BR/><BR/>Dan, as to dancing, I studied ballet for seven years, but dancing is still an unpleasant effort for me.Pagan Topologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611788563582362688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-10944824585186511212008-04-04T01:44:00.000-07:002008-04-04T01:44:00.000-07:00I'll throw out one that's not vile: learn to dance...I'll throw out one that's not vile: learn to dance.Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-36284033963332052042008-04-03T10:09:00.000-07:002008-04-03T10:09:00.000-07:00Men's insecurities aren't generally about their bo...Men's insecurities aren't generally about their bodies: it's about their level of power, success, and money. And TRUST ME, men get as much shit about this as women do about their looks. Men who DON'T want to compete run into the same stress as women who DO want to compete. <BR/>##<BR/>Remember the thing about older men and younger women. They DON'T generally have to match them for youth and beauty. But they DO have to have the resources to make up for it (read: money). The world is not particularly kind to unmarried women or powerless men. <BR/>##<BR/>I think that the "speed seduction" stuff is useful--sort of like learning to poke someone in the eye. Yes, it works. But most common arguments don't call for that. And yes, you can punch certain buttons and vastly increase your chances of getting laid...but would you want someone doing that to your sister? And if you wouldn't, isn't that a violation of the Feminine energy? It seems to me a betrayal of what human sexuality is actually about.<BR/>That said, I DID learn some of the techniques and try 'em out. Let's just say I was appalled at how powerful some were. No, I won't say which ones. I don't like it.Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-8662170879682300782008-04-03T08:50:00.000-07:002008-04-03T08:50:00.000-07:00I think the job market is unfairly tilted toward m...I think the job market is unfairly tilted toward men. I think the political system is unfairly tilted toward men having more power (Sen. Clinton is a <I>huge</I> outlier here). I think the fact that men have more money and power than women on average means that in many areas there's a bias toward treating men as the norm.<BR/><BR/>But I think the mating game is actually close to even, in the advantages and disadvantages each sex has. Certainly a lot more even than the job market. Of course, I only dealt with the mating game as a young and relatively pretty woman (if no great beauty), and even now, in my 40s, I frankly think I'm more attractive than average for my age, and could attract a good man if, heaven forbid, my husband were to leave me. Still, I think the mating game is more an area where each sex has its advantages than a one way street.<BR/><BR/>I do think there's something slanted against women in our public narratives of the mating game (more than the reality of it). There are whole industries that feed off making even very young and pretty women insecure about their looks. There are books and articles shouting that you must marry practically right out of college, or you'll fade and lose your chance. I know men have their insecurities, too, but I wonder if they're stoked to the same degree - at least for those men who are at the top of the game with the opposite sex.<BR/><BR/>On older men seeking younger women, I'm not angry at men doing that <I>by itself</I>. But I do get angry at particular <I>kinds</I> of older men seeking younger women. <BR/><BR/>Mr. Unrealistic: Will tell you till he's blue that women, unlike men, just naturally prefer wrinkles and pot bellies. Fails to realize that only <I>particular</I> older men are attractive. George Clooney can let his hair go gray and not bother with Botox on his wrinkles, and still be attractive, because he's George Clooney. Men lots less good looking than Clooney can draw younger women, if, with age, they've come to bring something else to the table. But not just because they're old.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Double Standard: It's only natural that he's attracted only to young women with perfect figures; that's how men were born to be. But darn those gold digging women!<BR/><BR/>Mr. Insulting: He won't settle for being attracted to whom he's attracted to, but must go out of his way to insult all the women who are too old or too fat or whatever to meet his standards.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Wants To Be Boss: The women who are his actual peers are so <I>angry</I> and <I>bitter</I>. Younger women treat him the way a man ought to be treated. Like Mr. Insulting, he's not content if he can't insult the women he's not attracted to, but this guy has a more pointed agenda. He wants to let his peers know that <I>they'll be so sorry</I> for not treating men right - where "right" means "as superiors."<BR/><BR/><I>then position yourself somewhere where people have a chance to get to know you.</I><BR/><BR/>That's kind of what I generally did, actually. I did meet my husband at a party, but what got us to the same side of that crowded room and into a long conversation with each other was the fact that we both had friends on that couch, and were headed toward the people at the party that we already knew. And the other guys I've been involved with have all been in my social circle in one way or another - student computer center, student coops, etc. So we had plenty of time to be drawn to each other by personality (at least to a large degree). Which I think is actually pretty common; beauty and money may be important, but, as treeleaf says, less so in the real world than in experiments that study attraction to strangers.Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-63145219990943422652008-04-03T08:38:00.000-07:002008-04-03T08:38:00.000-07:00Maybe this is not the correct post to add this to,...Maybe this is not the correct post to add this to, but concerning Ross Jeffries' "Speed Seduction," I read his first book maybe twenty years ago and was deeply offended and horrified. Now, however, he seems to insist that women be treated respectfully and listened to. He seems more than anything to be promoting healthy, sincere communication between men and women, which seems like a good thing to me. <BR/><BR/>Of course, I have not taken his courses, and I have never studied NLP as I know you have, so maybe I would find the actual techniques horrifying. However, looking only at his free emails that I subscribed to for a couple of months, I think he is promoting something worthwhile for a lot of people, not the kind of manipulation that he seemed to be in favor of in his original book. Honest communication is a worthwhile thing to promote.<BR/><BR/>David BellamyPagan Topologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611788563582362688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-71476784261459933432008-04-03T07:37:00.000-07:002008-04-03T07:37:00.000-07:00Once the bond is made, all bets are off. Relation...Once the bond is made, all bets are off. Relationships are about raising children more than anything else (on a biological level) and what is initially attractive is FAR less important than "will my children be safe with him/her?" Which really translates to: "is my heart safe?" So you guys have it right: initial attraction gets you off the dock, after that you're rowing together. If your strokes match and you're heading safely toward a desirable destination, the relationship has a chance. <BR/>#<BR/>Friendship is simply awesomely important. How much of even the most erotic marriage is spent in bed? <BR/>#<BR/>I have ZERO doubt that many women are angry at those younger women. What I find interesting is that 99+% of the anger I've heard expressed publicly is with the men who dated out of their age group. This goes neatly with my sense that men and women lie like crazy about what's really going on.<BR/>#<BR/>If one partner in a relationship gets too far ahead of the other, there are real problems. But "too far" is individually defined.Steven Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-89773438129416798352008-04-03T07:13:00.000-07:002008-04-03T07:13:00.000-07:00As I got older (say about 22-24), I found myself a...As I got older (say about 22-24), I found myself attracted to smart men. That overrode looks by far. I guess that's still power. <BR/><BR/>My husband and I were both somewhat chubby when we dated/married. I think he was attracted to my determination (full time job, full time college, while having a baby) and high value of honesty and truth. He never dated much, being a natural loner, and he said he found most women boring.<BR/><BR/>It didn't hurt that we had similar interests (sff, horror, video games, books, movies) and similar world views (politics, religion, social issues). <BR/><BR/>I never quite got the mirror idea until one day when I was laying in bed really wishing I could get my husband to do something I wanted (turn something off or check something or something stupid like that), and I realized there was no way in hell I could get him to do it... because he's just like me that way. We're not the kind to be bossed around, at all. <BR/><BR/>When Steve brought up the power/beauty thing, that made more sense to me. I think I did well picking my husband. At the time, he saw more in me than I saw in me, but I've grown into a much more secure person and I think we are a good match.<BR/><BR/>We both lost weight after I had a baby. Due to a benign heart condition, he kept the weight off using exercise as a means to control the annoying symptoms. After four years, I've gained it back and am struggling to pull it off again (having to learn to cope with stress-strain like never before).<BR/><BR/>In career, he is farther along the path, but I do manage the house and kids. We both strongly believe in doing what is one's passion. I write fiction (sold short stories but mostly at the beginning of my career) and he makes video games. He's worked in the industry for awhile before starting his own company (Soldak). He has one game out and is working on the second. Financially, we're still in a rocky place, but over time (with more products and branding), this will work out. We'll be back to "normal" (haha). <BR/><BR/>Except for experience, we match in career (though he has greater earning potential). We don't match in fitness anymore, though we did when we dated/married. We both want the same future and have the same values. We're really good together.<BR/><BR/>DelilahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-77904898388843689782008-04-02T18:35:00.000-07:002008-04-02T18:35:00.000-07:00Argh-- can't find the link.There's more science to...Argh-- can't find the link.<BR/><BR/>There's more science to take into account.<BR/><BR/>There was a ground-breaking and startling study published earlier this year-- thus my argh can't find the link-- that uncovered a flaw in all previous studies on the science behind human attraction. Previous studies were all done using strangers, this study discovered that <I>personality</I> is THE over-riding factor in <I>longterm</I> attraction. <BR/>As someone is kind to us, we learn to focus more on their eyes and mouth, which then "appear" larger and more striking to us. At the same time we learn to minimize eye contact and closeness with someone habitually snippy and cruel. The plain, kind woman ends up with co-workers blushing to describe her huge eyes and careful hands. The beautiful bitch drops to a small-eyed thin-mouthed average or worse. Over time-- and not much time-- our brains reshape the faces we see often, and the kind people in our lives become beautiful to us. I will not be at all surprised to learn that over time it is the <I>responsible</I> people we know who become powerful in our eyes.<BR/><BR/>People have been commenting along the lines of "Don't you wish our species was programmed with less shallow standards." WE ARE.<BR/><BR/>What the science of attraction has been studying turns out to be the most shallow and shortest phase of a greater whole to attraction-- the attention-getting phase. Conventional beauty/power do NOT rule the field; they are just the strongest initial attention-getters.<BR/><BR/>All of which shores up something I'll be willing to bet you've been saying for years-- that <I>strong friendships make for strong partnerships.</I> The person with strong relationship skills, who has networks through neighborhoods, family friends, congregations, activities, usually ends up falling in love with a friend without going near the highly artificial "dating scene" where Beauty and Wealth reign paramount. The scary thing is that we've come to accept a cultural norm so at odds with our biological criteria.Treebyleafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379852857910786540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-10456934428991983232008-04-02T12:33:00.000-07:002008-04-02T12:33:00.000-07:00Steve, I know several women who are angry at young...Steve, I know several women who are angry at younger women for taking away "their men" or trying to.Pagan Topologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611788563582362688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-46823896321615487622008-04-02T12:32:00.000-07:002008-04-02T12:32:00.000-07:00Just curious; in your viewpoint what does it mean ...Just curious; in your viewpoint what does it mean if one member of a married couple begins making significant gains or significant loses in one of the three areas while the other member is holding steady?Mike Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634414529649908616noreply@blogger.com