tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post4320488418683742187..comments2024-03-18T02:14:06.798-07:00Comments on Dar Kush: A little help with sex and violence?Steven Barneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-41254455424815124142008-07-15T08:25:00.000-07:002008-07-15T08:25:00.000-07:00The Constitution does not allow for blood guilt or...<I>The Constitution does not allow for blood guilt or guilt by association. </I><BR/><BR/>This is not strictly true. The Constitution only prohibits blood guilt for one crime: Treason.Pagan Topologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611788563582362688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-36396149415494079222008-07-15T06:13:00.000-07:002008-07-15T06:13:00.000-07:00Shady Grady: does it occur to you that your argume...Shady Grady: does it occur to you that your arguments are totally inconsistent and you are changing your logic so it always matches your emotions. In one case you argue that statistics don't say anything about the individual and that police officers should not let that affect them in the course of their job. At the same time you will use a small number of prominent cases in which white police officers abused blacks to condemn law enforcement has a whole. Please pick a stance, we can either reason from the few to the many or we can't.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-34434087515833500712008-07-14T03:25:00.000-07:002008-07-14T03:25:00.000-07:00I think residual racism plays a role in that, but ...<I>I think residual racism plays a role in that, but think of two groups: Group A and Group B. A random member of group B is SEVEN TIMES more likely to murder someone than a random member from group A.* Why would cops, even those cops who are part of group B, _not_ fear a random unknown member of group B more than they fear a random unknown member of group A? </I><BR/><BR/>That sort of thinking could slide into using statistics to justify or reinforce preexisting notions of prejudice and bigotry.<BR/><BR/>In the first place the overwhelming majority of Black people, Black males included are not in fact murderers or criminals.<BR/><BR/>Secondly the fact that a disproportionate number of Americans convicted of murder are Black does not give you any meaningful information about a particular Black individual. In fact that statistic is completely irrelevant to a judgment of an individual.<BR/><BR/>In many of the cases referenced the victims of actual or alleged brutality, harassment, misconduct or killing by the police were not in fact murderers. Why should an individual of a group be responsible for bad behavior by other members? <BR/><BR/>The Constitution does not allow for blood guilt or guilt by association. If a police officer finds that he or she can't operate in those frameworks they should find (be forced to find) a different line of work.Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-345766293173856802008-07-12T10:25:00.000-07:002008-07-12T10:25:00.000-07:00Also I ask myself the question, multiple officers ...<I>Also I ask myself the question, multiple officers seemed to make the same decision, at the same time, which would seem to support that some action triggered the shooting rather than these officers all at the same time decided they didn't like the guy and were going to shoot him.</I><BR/><BR/>Or some situation ...<BR/><BR/>Sure, cops aren't going to randomly walk onto a campus and shoot a black university president, or into a boardroom and shoot a black CEO. They shoot when they have some reason or other to be on their guard - maybe it's getting word that an actual criminal is loose in the area, maybe it's a wrong move by a suspect, maybe it's something in their surroundings. And some of the innocent people they shoot will be innocent people who were doing something dumb.<BR/><BR/>But multiple officers shooting in the same situation could well all be shooting, in part, because they've learned common biases, such that they wouldn't have shot a white person in that same situation. And all of us are in the wrong part of town at some point in our lives, or stopped at some point by a cop who's already on edge; many of us may, at one bad moment, fail to recognize quickly enough that we're dealing with a cop. And of course, you teach your kids, when dealing with a cop, keep your hands visible, move slowly, don't do anything rash, etc. But we all know, between Steve and me, who's more likely to be mistaken for a dangerous criminal if we happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And who might even be able to get away with doing something really dumb in a cop's presence, due to not looking like what most cops (or civilians) expect to be dangerous (not that I'm planning to risk being really dumb, even so).Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-3563180039223207962008-07-12T09:30:00.000-07:002008-07-12T09:30:00.000-07:00I just want to point out that my own logic, in one...I just want to point out that my own logic, in one sense points to a similar conclusion to anonymous's. If we take Mike's data at face value, it maybe true that a police officer responding to a crime in progress can expect to find and be in danger from a black perpetrator more often than a white perpetrator, but nothing in the data says once you arrive at the scene and are dealing with a white criminal, that criminal is less likely to be dangerous than a black criminal.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-43310701450681437452008-07-12T06:43:00.000-07:002008-07-12T06:43:00.000-07:00I really have to disagree with the last post by an...I really have to disagree with the last post by anonymous, at least with respect to police actions. It doesn't really matter even if its .7% of the population versus .1%, if you are in a situation that is potentially life threatening. In most such cases police officers are not dealing with the typical person they are dealing with criminals or people who are highly likely to be criminals.<BR/>Lets look at the Sean Bell case from my point of view. There were seven detectives involved. They were not on a picnic in Central Park when a random Black man walked by and they decided he might be armed and shot him. They were involved in a criminal investigation dealing with people who at the least were suspected criminals not random members of the population. As I understand it, Sean Bell himself had been arrested nine times previously. I have no idea whether or not the officers involved knew that specifically, but if they did that would increase their reason to fear him above the rest of the population. Also I ask myself the question, multiple officers seemed to make the same decision, at the same time, which would seem to support that some action triggered the shooting rather than these officers all at the same time decided they didn't like the guy and were going to shoot him.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-55424172012026311192008-07-11T17:36:00.000-07:002008-07-11T17:36:00.000-07:00As someone who has feared many things based on sta...As someone who has feared many things based on statistics I read in newspapers and magazines, I'm skeptical of using statistics to condone fear and the resulting actions.<BR/><BR/>Even if random members of group B are seven times more likely to commit violent crimes than members of group A, the overwhelming majority of people in group B are still unlikely to commit violent crimes.<BR/><BR/>So, lets say 1% of the members of group A are violent criminals and 7% of the members of group B are violent criminals. Does that really make it reasonable to fear the 93% of the members of group B who are not committing violent crimes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-8172697091838756392008-07-11T16:54:00.000-07:002008-07-11T16:54:00.000-07:00"most sex scenes in movies are misogynistic" I hav...<I>"most sex scenes in movies are misogynistic" I have to admit to confusion.</I><BR/><BR/>Steve, I go back to "Body Heat." One of the first scenes in the movie depicts a waitress leaving Ned Racine after they have had sex (OK this is not exactly a sex scene). It sets up opportunity for Matty Walker to exploit Racine, but the scene shows how Racine exploits women, and does not actually like them: he is attracted to the uniform, any uniform, and waitresses are handy, and can hardly get them out of his room fast enough once the act is completed. That is a powerfully negative message for women, for me. I think that is why women like the movie: Racine goes to jail for being a sexual fool, while Matty goes scott free by exploiting him. <BR/><BR/>I am having a very difficult time thinking of a sex scene that pleased me. I have seen many because I watch films. The only one that readily comes to mind is the alien sex in "The Man Who Fell to Earth" between David Bowie's character, Thomas Jerome Newton, and a woman who is basically anonymous, which actually disgusts me.<BR/><BR/>In "Murphy's Romance" one of the most romantic scenes is at the end of the movie when Murphy Jones tells Emma Moriarty, who is a generation or more younger than him, not to fool around with him because he is very serious about romance and sex. Still, no sex scene.<BR/><BR/>I hope this helps you get it.mjholthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00626250928180743075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-82059035963042270062008-07-11T15:08:00.000-07:002008-07-11T15:08:00.000-07:00though I see what your seeing,i would have used su...though I see what your seeing,i would have used subversive maybe rather than residual. Remember, segregation, another child of racism, has only been "illegal" for 40 years at best. Hence forcing the die-hard proponents of white supremacy and their ideas underground. Based on the current state of affairs, "Obama's Baby Mama" among countless other more nefarious incidents, I can only wonder how subversive it is...or will remain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-89595363906238792502008-07-11T15:04:00.000-07:002008-07-11T15:04:00.000-07:00slavery and racism are not the same. If you had sa...slavery and racism are not the same. If you had said residual effects from/of slavery, i'd agree. Racism is racism is racism. The ideology sooothed the cognitive dissonance that may have resulted in the minds of folk with conscience. HOw else would good, church going, democratic folk justify and excuse the treatment of an entire race of human beings? Racism and invariably White Supremacy allowed that. Folk had to believe that Africans were inferior to allay the guilt...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-10608160818884032162008-07-11T13:48:00.000-07:002008-07-11T13:48:00.000-07:00"racism is hardly "residual"."http://www.merriam-w..."racism is hardly "residual"."<BR/><BR/>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/residual<BR/>"an internal aftereffect of experience or activity that influences later behavior"<BR/><BR/>Culturally, the experience was slavery and white domination over most non-whites. The racism of the US today is very different, less strong and less violent for one thing, from that in 1908, let alone 1808. I stand by calling it residual.Mike Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634414529649908616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-86093655018822349362008-07-11T13:20:00.000-07:002008-07-11T13:20:00.000-07:00racism is hardly "residual". I feel like a pink el...racism is hardly "residual". I feel like a pink elephant. lololololAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-84296171381472802602008-07-11T12:32:00.000-07:002008-07-11T12:32:00.000-07:00"The question that needs to be asked is why so man..."The question that needs to be asked is why so many Black Americans of both genders and various levels of economic success perceive police brutality, misconduct and harassment as a serious problem."<BR/><BR/>I think residual racism plays a role in that, but think of two groups: Group A and Group B. A random member of group B is SEVEN TIMES more likely to murder someone than a random member from group A.* Why would cops, even those cops who are part of group B, _not_ fear a random unknown member of group B more than they fear a random unknown member of group A?<BR/><BR/>*http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html<BR/><BR/>MURDERERS AND VICTIMS<BR/>BY RACE AND GENDER<BR/>IDENTITY<BR/> MURDERERS VICTIMS<BR/>Black male 47.9% 42.2%<BR/>White male 42.9% 37.3%<BR/>White female 5.4% 13.3%<BR/>Black female 4.1% 7.2%<BR/>Total 100.0% 100.0%<BR/><BR/>(Whites outnumber blacks roughly 7 - 1, so with blacks being a slightly larger % of murders that means they are roughly 7 times as likely to commit murder on a per capita basis)Mike Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634414529649908616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-11095278112424435082008-07-11T12:00:00.000-07:002008-07-11T12:00:00.000-07:00My opinion on misogyny in films would be a waste o...My opinion on misogyny in films would be a waste of time, as my sister will testify that I am an unrepentant MCP.<BR/><BR/>Cops, racist? Certainly, but not as bad as portrayed. I believe that the "a$$hole coefficient" is higher in that population, and this comes off as racist to many.<BR/><BR/>Somewhat off topic, here's an essay that you might want to comment on, Steven.<BR/>http://lhote.blogspot.com/2008/07/race-and-minefield.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-76514408169846338362008-07-11T10:52:00.000-07:002008-07-11T10:52:00.000-07:00lollollol and the band plays on lollollollollol and the band plays on lollolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-39409687676000654942008-07-11T09:51:00.000-07:002008-07-11T09:51:00.000-07:00As far as two people to get shot; it's obvious tha...<I><BR/>As far as two people to get shot; it's obvious that you have to do something to make the officer feel like he's in danger.</I><BR/><BR/>If you really believe that God bless you. There's nothing that anyone can do to change your mind. I already gave you the example of the young man Tim Stansbury who opened a door to a roof and was fatally shot by police. Amadou Diallo was shot in his own vestibule and so on. What did Stansbury do wrong?<BR/><I><BR/>I'll ask you a question:<BR/>If a police officer approaches you with his hand on his pistol and gives you an order, what do you do?<BR/><BR/>The Sean Bell trial was plastered all over the news and the witnesses corroborated the testimony that a gun was mentioned and that they nearly ran the cops over. </I><BR/><BR/>That's a straw man argument. I never said that people should argue with armed police who have <BR/>no problem using deadly force.<BR/><BR/>The question that needs to be asked is why so many Black Americans of both genders and various levels of economic success perceive police brutality, misconduct and harassment as a serious problem.<BR/><BR/>Blair Underwood and Branford Marsalis have had incidents.<BR/><BR/>It's real. It happens. It cannot be explained by citizens doing the wrong thing or refusing to obey lawful authority.<BR/><BR/>The witnesses in the Sean Bell case all testified that the police never identified themselves. <BR/><BR/>If three or more armed men ran up to you with guns drawn and started shouting as you were leaving a club wouldn't the possibility of a carjacking cross your mind?Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-58676965117691927102008-07-11T09:22:00.000-07:002008-07-11T09:22:00.000-07:00Secondly, my comment about it translating into the...<I>Secondly, my comment about it translating into the streets was based upon the expectation that in many cases no matter how good the training in the classroom, when faced with a threatening situation in real life people tend to react with their instincts rather than their training.</I><BR/><BR/>Granted. This is why _good_ training smashes the act right into your reflexes.<BR/><BR/>Example - how to clear a jam in a rifle. The Marines distill that into a five-step process and then drill the snot out of you until you can do it in your sleep.<BR/><BR/>It's drilled into my brain do deep that on the rifle range I had to take a conscious step not to apply the corrective action - and this is not unusual. <BR/><BR/>(The reason not to apply immediate action on the range is that if you clear your own weapon you can't make up the missed time. If a range official clears the weapon you get extra time to shoot the rounds that jammed.)<BR/><BR/>Anyway. The point of 'shoot/don't shoot' is that the actions taken there become instinct.Brian Dunbarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12952894032434503816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-29359929022208979072008-07-11T07:29:00.000-07:002008-07-11T07:29:00.000-07:00I have family in NY and they see things much diffe...<I>I have family in NY and they see things much differently than you. Anyway crime and police brutality are nationwide problems.<BR/><BR/>In the case you reference, Sean Bell's friends indicate that the police never identified themselves as such but just started shooting.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I'm sure they especially see me differently than I see myself.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As far as two people to get shot; it's obvious that you have to do something to make the officer feel like he's in danger.<BR/><BR/>I'll ask you a question:<BR/><BR/>If a police officer approaches you with his hand on his pistol and gives you an order, what do you do?<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Sean Bell trial was plastered all over the news and the witnesses corroborated the testimony that a gun was mentioned and that they nearly ran the cops over.<BR/><BR/>Again, I hate senseless deaths but you are not going to call Abe, Jamal, Biffy or Hassan unless they have on a badge.<BR/><BR/>We have a bad history with cops, but not racist, merely, "this is the job."Christian H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16847810167041864292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-46425436725783968032008-07-11T07:23:00.000-07:002008-07-11T07:23:00.000-07:00I can't imagine why living in Brooklyn would "chan...<I>I can't imagine why living in Brooklyn would "change my attitudes." What attitudes? </I><BR/><BR/>I mean how much you believe is the fault of the majority race. <BR/><BR/>When I say it looks bad (Brooklyn) you can believe it. I don't know. But anyway, I'd like to talk to you about some of these things offline.<BR/><BR/>I think we're more alike than it may appear. I just have little to no patience or compassion. <BR/><BR/>I bet we both feel that somehow we should be "higher on the totem pole."<BR/><BR/>I bet we both feel that personal choice is the main factor in any person's life.<BR/><BR/>etc. etc.Christian H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16847810167041864292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-980157188500422882008-07-11T05:23:00.000-07:002008-07-11T05:23:00.000-07:00First after re-reading my last comment, I decided ...First after re-reading my last comment, I decided some people might think that I think a half percent of biased police officers is not a problem. I didn't mean to say that. What I was saying was more like anybody who doesn't believe we have some percentage of biased police officers is in lala land and so we shouldn't be surprised at a certain number of newsworthy incidents.<BR/>Secondly, my comment about it translating into the streets was based upon the expectation that in many cases no matter how good the training in the classroom, when faced with a threatening situation in real life people tend to react with their instincts rather than their training.Marty Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465745755940914756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-14214680345676644362008-07-11T04:35:00.000-07:002008-07-11T04:35:00.000-07:00) I have a chain of thought I find unavoidable. Se...<I>) I have a chain of thought I find unavoidable. Sex in gay porn is more aggressive and dominating (from what I've seen) than typical heterosexual porn. If the level of aggression/domination in heterosexual movies means men hate/dislike/mistrust women, does this mean they also hate/dislike/mistrust men?</I><BR/><BR/>I've seen probably more gay porn than you have, and I'm not noticing this at all. Mainstream heterosexual porn is certainly misogynistic in many cases. Slapping and spitting and choking are all getting popular.<BR/><BR/>What you might have been seeing is gay fetish porn, which includes Sadist/Masochist interaction, but I don't think has the same sense of denigrating someone. There's plenty of good lesbian fetish porn out there too, and the videos I've seen show some activity you might be able to interpret as hateful, except there's always conversation between the two women about how nice things are.<BR/><BR/>Sex scenes in regular movies are different from porn. The intent isn't always to arouse.<BR/><BR/><I>f you feel men hate women more than they hate other men, is it an "out-group" thing? (Hate them because they are the "other"). If so, why have I had to fight so hard to convince people that there might be a "10% disconnect" between white people and black people? Wouldn't the same reasoning lead you to believe that racism is deep, pervasive, and incurable?ᅠI honestly don't get it. And I'm really trying. A little help, please?</I><BR/><BR/>One thing is that it might not be hatred, it might be a desire to dominate by fear and violence, and own sexually.<BR/><BR/>I don't think white people want the sex fro black people, but I think part of the disconnect you're talking about is a desire to keep in charge, a fear of what would happen if a black person was in charge, a fear that black people will try and take charge by violence, and a need to feel superior to black people.<BR/><BR/>It's not too dissimilar between men and women, except men aren't afraid of women physically dominating them . Despite that, I think there's a cultural encouraged tradition of physically dominating women.Josh Jasperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07967224493245832241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-21342145694740428582008-07-10T20:33:00.000-07:002008-07-10T20:33:00.000-07:00It seems to me that the tests described are much l...<I>It seems to me that the tests described are much like a video game and I am not sure they would translate well into the streets.</I><BR/><BR/> The idea is to teach the trainee under what circumstances to use deadly force, when not to, and when it's a good time to pull your gun but not use deadly force.<BR/><BR/>Little cues that are supposed to soak into your brain, ready to be called up and used at the right time. Like 'pay attention' and 'soda cans look like guns' and 'you can hide a shotgun inside a baby blanket'.<BR/><BR/>The tech has probably changed some since I used it, twenty years ago. But then it was ...<BR/><BR/>Trainee has a pistol, faces a large projection screen. Pistol has 'caps' so you know you're shooting. Trainer stands behind at a console.<BR/><BR/>The videos are short, and repeatable with different scenarios and the actor's play different parts. So one scenario at a traffic stop a woman jumps out of a trunk, gagged and shaking off ropes. Looks like a kidnapping. Or a prank gone awry. Eight scenarios later, it repeats except this time she jumps out with a shotgun. So while the hapless trainee is focusing on the driver yelling about 'something' (just like before!) he gets shot because he saw what wasn't there.<BR/><BR/>Whoops. <BR/><BR/>It's not like a video game - it's structured and there are pauses (but not long ones) while the trainer critiques. The idea is to learn something, not slay bad guys with abandon.Brian Dunbarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12952894032434503816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-27450832916167369312008-07-10T20:18:00.000-07:002008-07-10T20:18:00.000-07:00I don't think 'misogyny' is what you're seeing in ...I don't think 'misogyny' is what you're seeing in movie sex. What you're seeing, often, is women being made into what film students call 'the object of the gaze'. They're often being presented favorably--as sexy, desirable, even powerful--but still objectified. It's this flattening of their character into a mere tool for male pleasure that is the problem. It isn't rooted in fear or mistrust, though, it's more to do with the sometimes-simplistic nature of male sexuality (particularly how visual and uncomplicated our cortex can get when we're in rut).<BR/><BR/>Remember lads--if you treat women like objects, you'll wind up having to treat objects like women.<BR/><BR/>As to racial images and beating the drum? Please, please, please do keep it up. I think there's maybe 2% of the time where you're seeing patterns that I don't agree exist (for example, I think it's more Kevin James than Will Smith being emasculated in the Hitch scene, since he's taking the female role in their simulation, and the one foolish enough to keep going with it), but the other 98% is eye-opening for me. Racial images are like any other reflex of habit, and being a hetero white male in the American Southeast, I worry that I have a lot of junk programming to discard or circumvent. But it's like learning a martial art, in a sense. Just because I was conditioned to jerk away from something doesn't mean I can't be trained to take a rational, humane attitude or response instead, once I put my higher brain into gear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-66087611359750840892008-07-10T19:52:00.000-07:002008-07-10T19:52:00.000-07:00bias is being far too benign a word. People must s...bias is being far too benign a word. People must stop dancing around the reality and deal with some historical facts. Race is a man made construct, as is the hierarchy and valuation based on differences. So called scientists, theorists, and lord knows who else (including Dr. Watson or Crick recently) created and perpetuated classifications of people based on skin color, features, and even bone shape and structure. Top of the food chain were Europeans and bottom were the AFricans. The idea that AFricans were inferior intellectually, closer to beasts than human, predisposed for hard labor, and were sexually deviant, and violent has been written about in books, journals, and even NOW is prevalent in pop media and culture. We're talking 400+ years of brainwashing, conditioning, and socializing. Black people were taught to hate themselves, believing themselves to be inferior (the WORLD over), and it is CLEAR that we along with everyone else bought into. That's the reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-70747434042314291552008-07-10T19:45:00.000-07:002008-07-10T19:45:00.000-07:00Just as an aside, it seems like there is a paralle...Just as an aside, it seems like there is a parallel between these two statements:<BR/><BR/>a. Getting beaten up or shot by the police is something you participate in, by your dress, your actions, your affect. <BR/><BR/>b. Getting beaten up or shot by thugs is something you participate in, by your dress, your actions, your affect. <BR/><BR/>Both of these have some truth to them--a lot of victims of crimes were acting stupid, or were not taking sensible precautions. But there's also an element of randomness here. Some people that get shot to death by the police apparently were guilty of nothing more than opening the door with a wallet in their hands. Similarly, some people who get mugged were walking to their car in a safe neighborhood by daylight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com