tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post25765556233608861..comments2024-03-25T17:38:55.490-07:00Comments on Dar Kush: If you can't be sure of a good apple...Steven Barneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13630529492355131777noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-5645779820869649402010-02-07T09:38:07.890-08:002010-02-07T09:38:07.890-08:00qspace absurd perfection illustrative tkuh oxfam b...qspace absurd perfection illustrative tkuh oxfam bentylol statutes ochas maturity margin <br />lolikneri havaqatsuAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-39427642025734688832008-08-23T10:43:00.000-07:002008-08-23T10:43:00.000-07:00If your cat (or dog) won't have a thing to do with...If your cat (or dog) won't have a thing to do with them, avoid them. The kitty barometer never fails.writtenwyrddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02280711822302493122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-84037723426366875822008-08-17T17:08:00.000-07:002008-08-17T17:08:00.000-07:00good points, for me if there are no lies, no cheat...good points, for me if there are no lies, no cheating, and no stealing, most other things can be talked over and a consensus reached...laughingwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08873675614347328116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-58994195963825357552008-07-20T14:14:00.000-07:002008-07-20T14:14:00.000-07:00For the story I told, it's at least plausible that...For the story I told, it's at least plausible that the man was offered some clues he didn't pick up on. Notice that the woman told me (a total stranger to her) that story as though it was funny (and as though she'd told it many times), and that it came as a surprise to her that her behavior had indirect consequences.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't be surprised if she'd been talking for years about how she'd gotten things she wanted regardless of the people around her, and the man who married her thought she was cute or somesuch, or possibly that she was his best available mate.<BR/><BR/>This doesn't mean everyone who gets snagged by a mate like that is to blame (and I could be wrong in that case-- I'm guessing). There are certainly people who are better at concealing how they behave than that lady.Nancy Lebovitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07068537632391466902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-19087611365561912482008-07-20T07:37:00.000-07:002008-07-20T07:37:00.000-07:00That story I can believe - sometimes spouses do su...That story I can believe - sometimes spouses do such unethical things to each other. I read a book once, by a woman about her journey through infertility treatment, where the way the process started was that, after she and her husband had firmly agreed that neither wanted children, she changed her mind <EM>and didn't even talk with him about her change of heart</EM>, but just went ahead and ditched her pills. He was angry when she confessed she'd been trying for months, but forgave her, stayed married, and went along with the infertility treatment, which I thought was a lot more than she deserved.<BR/><BR/>Flip side: back when Garrison Keillor was giving advice in Salon magazine, a woman wrote him who wanted a baby while her husband didn't, and he related the suggestion of a friend of his that she openly ditch her birth control and tell her husband it was his responsibility to use condoms. There was a chorus of response in the Salon letters that this was terribly unethical; I couldn't for the life of me see why.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how you avoid people who both change their minds about critical agreements and don't tell you of their change of heart, but having someone who both is on the same page with you about critical questions like whether to have children, and has the character to talk things out openly in the case of a change of heart is definitely what one would want, however one tests for the talking things out openly part.Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-8066979612668987342008-07-20T06:49:00.000-07:002008-07-20T06:49:00.000-07:00One more proposed rule for Steve's list: Nathaniel...One more proposed rule for Steve's list: Nathaniel Branden said "Never marry someone who isn't a friend to your excitement."<BR/><BR/>Here's a story I was told which I believe is true.<BR/><BR/>A woman told me, as an amusing thing, that she wanted a child and her husband didn't. So she got him drunk when he was watching the Superbowl, then had unprotected sex with him. The funny part is that the resulting son is a sports fan.<BR/><BR/>I was shocked and horrified (by the standards used for how men treat women, what she did was rape) but not very good at moral denunciation, so I thought for a bit, then asked about the husband's reaction.<BR/><BR/>She thought for a bit, suddenly looked unhappy, then said it might have had something to do with the divorce.<BR/><BR/>I have no idea how common that sort of thing is-- probably not very common, but I don't think I was told about the only case, either.<BR/><BR/>I don't know what everyone's obligations are in that case. Arguably, she should have lost custody, but he didn't want a child at all, so giving him full responsibility doesn't work either.Nancy Lebovitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07068537632391466902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-64990967652161358562008-07-19T09:51:00.000-07:002008-07-19T09:51:00.000-07:00This story was told to me as true; I cannot vouch ...<EM>This story was told to me as true; I cannot vouch for it. Nevertheless, it is possible.</EM><BR/><BR/>Sounds like an urban legend to me.<BR/><BR/>More generally, let's say we have three categories of men who find themselves the fathers of unexpected pregnancies.<BR/><BR/>Category A: The man was careless. He didn't wrap it; he didn't get any reasonable assurance that the woman was on reliable birth control. Now, surprise!<BR/><BR/>Category B: The man exercised all reasonable care that he could (given that he was having intercourse with a pre-menopausal woman and neither had been sterilized) to avoid pregnancy. He wrapped it, and he also made sure that any woman he was sleeping with was using reliable birth control. She got pregnant anyway. Tough luck; he got the lousy end of the odds.<BR/><BR/>Category C: The man's involvement is truly involuntary. Someone pointed a gun at his head and forced him to have sex. Or someone stole his used condom to impregnate herself. Or, he's really a twelve-year-old boy being molested by his junior high school teacher.<BR/><BR/>Now, how common, relatively, are these three categories going to be? I would say that Category C is going to be <EM>extremely</EM> small - significantly smaller than the set of women who get pregnant after being raped (and even that set is much smaller than the set of pregnancies that result from mutually enthusiastic sex). <BR/><BR/>Category B? Not so small. Contraception fails; sex has an inherent danger to it, as Dan says, and a lot of pregnancies <EM>are</EM> contraceptive failures. You can reduce your odds of falling in Category B by using your contraception with more care. Don't just wrap it, but be sure you know what things make condoms more likely to fail or break and don't do them. Don't just sleep with a woman who's using contraception, but with one you can be reasonably sure is using it reliably. But, short of sterilization, pregnancy's always a possibility.<BR/><BR/>Category A? Easily the largest - not because men are careless, but because, after all, people who haven't done much to reduce their odds of fatherhood are far more likely to find themselves fathers than those who have. This category is also likely to increase any time men's incentive to use condoms and care about birth control is reduced; some men will still be responsible, but there's a set who won't.<BR/><BR/>Now, as charles said, when a pregnancy results, not the child's fault. And the child is still better off with a father than without, so, you have to trade off the hardship to the man of having a responsibility he didn't want or plan on against the hardship to the child of having no father.<BR/><BR/>In an ideal world, nobody would be a parent who didn't want to <EM>and</EM> no child would be abandoned. In the real world, where that's not always an option, the child's need for support trumps. It might be possible to exempt some of the edge cases - particularly the Category C ones - but it doesn't make sense to set public policy on those cases.<BR/><BR/>Rough on the men in Category B - but then, despite Roe vs. Wade, lots of women for whom abortion isn't a practical option are in that same category. And everyone's entitled to take his or her last clear chance not to be a parent, but only as long as there's no child to be harmed by abandonment.<BR/><BR/>As for the unnaturalness of being expected to be celibate if you don't want kids, yes, abstaining from sexual intercourse is difficult and to some large extent unnatural. Unfortunately for those who don't want to be parents, <EM>not becoming a parent</EM> is also to some extent unnatural. Using contraception reliably all the time isn't something we do easily (though it's easier than abstaining altogether from sex). Fortunately for those who don't want to become parents, one can often beat nature here. But not always. For better odds, well, there's anal, oral, mutual masturbation, and vasectomies.<BR/><BR/>I tend to think this fact has corrolaries for what sexual choices people should be making, and that, in addition to using contraception when appropriate, people should consider how they'd be able to deal with each other in the event of an unplanned pregnancy: Is this someone you could trust? Someone you can make decisions with? Someone you'd be OK taking a phone call from in a crisis? But a lot of people think otherwise, and figure reliable modern contraception means not having to worry about such things.Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-54844750045427325922008-07-18T12:19:00.000-07:002008-07-18T12:19:00.000-07:00Look, there are child support scenarios where a ma...Look, there are child support scenarios where a man might legitimately feel screwed -- I'm raising 3 of another man's kids, and in their whole lives (the oldest is 18) he's barely contributed to their financial needs. Hell, the year before my now-wife left this guy, I loaned them more money than he made.<BR/><BR/>There are edge cases out there involving fathers, mothers, children, child support, etc. -- but it's hard to make law on the edge cases. (Not impossible, just hard.) But in the great majority of cases of unwanted fatherhood, the law does the correct thing -- doesn't enforce correctly, and you can trust me on that, but at least assigns correctly.Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-23534769096034681842008-07-18T12:09:00.000-07:002008-07-18T12:09:00.000-07:00I heard a story once that a woman had sex with her...I heard a story once that a woman had sex with her husband on Saturday mornings and then left, to return later on. They were using condoms for birth control, and she was taking the condoms, unnoticed by him, and artificially inseminating three of her girlfriends. A couple of years later, he was sued for child support and had to pay it. Sorry, Dan, I think there are circumstances where a man did not have much, if any, choice.<BR/><BR/>This story was told to me as true; I cannot vouch for it. Nevertheless, it is possible.Pagan Topologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611788563582362688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-25497639415023372692008-07-18T12:00:00.000-07:002008-07-18T12:00:00.000-07:00Charles, this is an area where I do indeed have st...Charles, this is an area where I do indeed have strong opinions. If my expressing those opinions makes you feel lectured, you're getting something I'm not offering.<BR/><BR/>Look, I'm male. Really. Working equipment and everything, if a little less driven by it than in days of yore. If you're really the guy who hit the lottery in this area, please accept my sympathy. But really, dude, 99.99% of the men out there in your position didn't hit the lottery, they just didn't take precautions. Whatever your personal circumstances are, that's a true statement.<BR/>(And when I used the "weak excuse" phrase above, I really didn't realize you were talking about personal circumstances; I thought you were making a general social observation. If I'd clued in, I'd have used a less harsh phrase.)<BR/><BR/>And yeah, I can see the "opt out" argument. I disagree with it, but it's not a contemptible position -- the "force her to an abortion/pregnancy" thing pretty much does strike me as vile, but what you're actually advocating, the "opt out" .... I think it's bad social policy and I'd vote against it, but I understand the feeling.Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-60263571237222393152008-07-18T06:49:00.000-07:002008-07-18T06:49:00.000-07:00As far as precautions go, the statistical chances ...As far as precautions go, the statistical chances were already as low as you describe. You don't know, and I'm not going into it here. But they are already as close to zero as you can get. Your continued harping on this fact though I've already stated that makes me thing that perhaps this isn't a conversation as much as a lecture.<BR/><BR/>And no, I don't want to force any choices on her, I just don't want any forced on me. Male reproductive rights is already an oxymoron. What I would like is for her choice not to be based on my support. If I had the choice to opt out, then let her *really* make a choice based on what she can do and what kind of life she'd have with a child as a single mother with no other support. Would I allow that to happen- no. If she still chose to have the child then I would support it. But it would be my choice, and I wouldn't have been forced into it. I know you won't be able to see the distinction- most people don't that haven't been unfairly put into the situation, which is the reason that we have the culture built up around these issues that we have. These feelings are valid, but they aren't validated. Instead they are ridiculed and ignored as totally irrational. It's a place that few acknowledge is a problem, and even fewer want to visit.<BR/><BR/>In the end, in my opinion, life is all about the choices we make. And when one of those is taken totally out of your hands, it's a very crappy place to be put into. Especially when everyone around you says you should have made a totally unrealistic choice of not doing something that is totally natural, that our bodies and emotions crave, if not need.wraith808https://www.blogger.com/profile/15536831449537251229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-83258982590849706892008-07-17T23:39:00.000-07:002008-07-17T23:39:00.000-07:00So, even though the doctor says there's no chance ...<I>So, even though the doctor says there's no chance - even now he's skeptical because nothing has changed as far as my ability to have children, it's still my fault?</I><BR/><BR/>First, who said anything about fault? Sex between men and women is known to lead to children: this isn't a moral statement, merely a fact.<BR/><BR/>Is it your kid? I dunno. I know you can find out, though, and am not clear why you wouldn't.<BR/><BR/><I>And even though she has a chance to choose after the fact, my only choice is to forego sex for the remainder of my life?</I><BR/><BR/>1. Make sure she's on the pill. 2. Have her wear a diaphragm. 3. Get a vasectomy. 4. Wrap it. 5. Wrap it again.<BR/><BR/>You manage to get a woman pregnant under those circumstances ... well, I want you to buy my lottery tickets for me.<BR/><BR/>There are always options.<BR/><BR/><I>And nothing strikes you as ... wrong about that? Hypocritical even?</I><BR/><BR/>Wrong that she gets to choose? No, I think that's as it should be. You really want a world where the guy gets to force a woman to bear his child? Or force her to have an abortion? It sounds like you do, at least one of those options and maybe both.Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-47463242182141352782008-07-17T21:43:00.000-07:002008-07-17T21:43:00.000-07:00So, even though the doctor says there's no chance ...So, even though the doctor says there's no chance - even now he's skeptical because nothing has changed as far as my ability to have children, it's still my fault? And even though she has a chance to choose after the fact, my only choice is to forego sex for the remainder of my life? And nothing strikes you as ... wrong about that? Hypocritical even?wraith808https://www.blogger.com/profile/15536831449537251229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-65174455356796921502008-07-17T17:36:00.000-07:002008-07-17T17:36:00.000-07:00Charles,I'm glad to hear you're stepping up, and i...Charles,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad to hear you're stepping up, and if my response strikes you as self-righteous, I apologize. But I have the same take regardless.<BR/><BR/>Look, I had a gay friend tell me he shouldn't have gotten HIV because he used a condom all the time. I had a lot of sympathy -- I mean, HIV -- but my core take as to his responsibility wasn't any different than toward a man who gets a woman pregnant.<BR/><BR/>Sex is dangerous. It's always been dangerous. You got caught on the short end of bad odds, but there were ways to make a low probability event a zero probability event, if it matters enough.Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-33045978810048136702008-07-17T16:58:00.000-07:002008-07-17T16:58:00.000-07:00@DanWas in an accident. She wasn't supposed to be...@Dan<BR/><BR/>Was in an accident. She wasn't supposed to be able to have children either. Wrapped it in addition. It's not the child's fault, so I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. But until you've walked in another man's shoes and dealt with another man's statistics, you might want to check the self-righteousness at the door.wraith808https://www.blogger.com/profile/15536831449537251229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-37118700388920881932008-07-17T16:52:00.000-07:002008-07-17T16:52:00.000-07:00So someone that is totally and completely unprepar...<I>So someone that is totally and completely unprepared to be a father is placed in this position, when perhaps, other than celibacy, he has done everything to prevent it, up to, and including in some cases, vasectomy.</I><BR/><BR/>That's a weak excuse. Get a vasectomy & wrap it twice. Get handjobs, oral and anal sex. Jerk off.<BR/><BR/>No man past the age of puberty in this country has an excuse for getting caught in this area. Period.Daniel Keys Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12992599044462413412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-14343111636328369792008-07-17T12:17:00.000-07:002008-07-17T12:17:00.000-07:00But when a man walks away from his children, then ...<I>But when a man walks away from his children, then he's abandoning his responsibilities and deserves any flack he gets. For various reasons, that choice tends to be more of an option for a man than it is for a woman, so men need a little more "step up to the plate and be a father" pressure than women do to step up to the plate and be mothers (not a case of women being better than men in a global way, since the sexes' different roles have different weaknesses - but this is an important weakness in men's filling of their role that needs addressing).</I><BR/><BR/>At one time I would have agreed with you unconditionally. Now, not so much. I mean, in principle, the concept works. But in our society, there are prejudices now against men that place unequal and unfair burdens upon them. There are many movements for the woman's right to choose, but men are told if you have sex, you're at the mercy of the woman's choice. So someone that is totally and completely unprepared to be a father is placed in this position, when perhaps, other than celibacy, he has done everything to prevent it, up to, and including in some cases, vasectomy. So you get this mentality of <I>men need a little more "step up to the plate and be a father" pressure than women</I> when perhaps it is that the system that forces men into fatherhood against their choice in deference to the women's choice needs a change...wraith808https://www.blogger.com/profile/15536831449537251229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-31919293977674418432008-07-17T10:33:00.000-07:002008-07-17T10:33:00.000-07:00Thanks-- it's definitely Gottman. I was thinking G...Thanks-- it's definitely Gottman. I was thinking Gottlieb, and at that point, google was no help.Nancy Lebovitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07068537632391466902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-52459091794774394382008-07-17T10:28:00.000-07:002008-07-17T10:28:00.000-07:00I found this rather interesting;http://www.futurep...I found this rather interesting;<BR/><BR/>http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/005366.html<BR/><BR/>Some social science research provides evidence for expected truths. Other times it comes up with unintuitive results. Here's a piece of research that does both at the same time. If a good-looking guy has just flirted with your girlfriend she is more likely to forgive you for a bad thing you did?<BR/><BR/> Temptation may be everywhere, but it's how the different sexes react to flirtation that determines the effect it will have on their relationships. In a new study, psychologists determined men tend to look at their partners in a more negative light after meeting a single, attractive woman. On the other hand, women are likelier to work to strengthen their current relationships after meeting an available, attractive man.<BR/><BR/>I can understand the evolutionary origin of the male reaction. When he thinks he's got other options he's more likely to be less tolerant of perceived short-comings of his mate. But the female reaction is more puzzling. Anyone got a good evolutionary explanation for the origin of this behavior?Mike Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634414529649908616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-10937118155986162872008-07-17T08:55:00.000-07:002008-07-17T08:55:00.000-07:00And, a corrolary of that is that, if you're a woma...And, a corrolary of that is that, if you're a woman and expect to have kids, signs to whether the guy's capable of being a responsible father to his kids are <EM>very</EM> important in picking your relationships.Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-11014253147470891102008-07-17T08:54:00.000-07:002008-07-17T08:54:00.000-07:00Whenever a man leaves a relationship with a woman,...<EM>Whenever a man leaves a relationship with a woman, he is worthy only of contempt</EM><BR/><BR/>I've never divided things up that way; I expect both men and women to initiate a break up or two on the way to finding the person they'll marry (even if they actually manage to make that first marriage last). Breaking up a relationship that isn't working can be absolutely the right decision, for a man or a woman. <BR/><BR/>But when a man <EM>walks away from his children</EM>, then he's abandoning his responsibilities and deserves any flack he gets. For various reasons, that choice tends to be more of an option for a man than it is for a woman, so men need a little more "step up to the plate and be a father" pressure than women do to step up to the plate and be mothers (not a case of women being better than men in a global way, since the sexes' different roles have different weaknesses - but this is an important weakness in <EM>men's</EM> filling of their role that needs addressing).Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-10012904007216536072008-07-17T08:45:00.000-07:002008-07-17T08:45:00.000-07:00Of my four major adult relationships, I'm still on...<EM>Of my four major adult relationships, I'm still on good terms with all of them.</EM><BR/><BR/>I wish I could say that. Of my several most significant adult relationships other than my husband, one man is dead, and I lost touch with the others.<BR/><BR/><EM>Sorry no source, but I've heard interviews with a researcher who did long term studies of relationships</EM><BR/><BR/>Perhaps Dr. John Gottman(http://www.gottman.com/)?Lynn Gazis-Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16775215056055972392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-69695952262628843792008-07-17T08:39:00.000-07:002008-07-17T08:39:00.000-07:00Tis is an interesting and useful post, but there i...Tis is an interesting and useful post, but there is an aspect that no one has brought up. In the 1960's and 1970's, I was thoroughly brainwashed by the feminist women I knew to believe that:<BR/>1) Whenever a woman leaves a relationship with a man, she is self actualizing and freeing herself from oppression; and<BR/>2) Whenever a man leaves a relationship with a woman, he is worthy only of contempt, since he is abandoning his responsibilities and becoming an even greater part of the problem. <BR/><BR/>I very strongly internalized these and have always congratulated women when they ended relationships, but I never felt that I had the right to end one, no matter how much emotional abuse I was putting up with. Maybe most men don't take women seriously enough to swallow this line, but I still have trouble with the indoctrination that women are valuable, but men are valueless. This viewpoint actually dates back to my childhood religious training, which the feminist movement just strengthened, I suspect.Pagan Topologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611788563582362688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-24457055474322180122008-07-17T06:42:00.000-07:002008-07-17T06:42:00.000-07:00See how they treat waiters and clerks, and other p...See how they treat waiters and clerks, and other people in service industries.<BR/><BR/>See if they're able to pull themselves together when the situation calls for it.Josh Jasperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08441897278413737658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339191.post-47197197319452642722008-07-17T06:35:00.000-07:002008-07-17T06:35:00.000-07:00Speaking of research (thanks for the memory jog, N...Speaking of research (thanks for the memory jog, Nancy) I remember seeing something about marriage counseling and one of the best counselors in the nation said that when he sees heavy, continual sarcasm (which I believe is a sign of contempt, especially when I saw it in action on the program, yuck!) it's likely that the marriage is doomed. People who are naturally self-effacing may see someone else's sarcasm as a humorous commentary on their own fallibility, but it gets non-funny and belittling fast.Kamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531243633193697440noreply@blogger.com